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TOPIC: Basing & Rules
PM bushs
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Posts: 51
Basing & Rules
bushs
5th Sep 2016 07:38:05

Hi all,

I wasn't sure whether to include this query in the rules section or the modelling section as it concerns both topics to some degree.

I've bought a pile of 60x60 bases but I'm thinking that 75x75 might be the way to go instead because IMO they look more impressive. i.e you can mount more miniatures on the base (the super massed look) and at the same time there is extra realestate for unit identity tags and casualty counters (my preference is for miniature casualty figures as opposed to brightly coloured caps, chips, dice etc.) .

Query is, has anybody on the forum used 60x60 and 75x75 and noticed a quantum leap in game playability? As in, outflanking and movements on the rear become almost an impossibility because of the increase in base size. For context, I'm thinking approx. 20 bases an army on a standard 6'x4' gaming table.

Best Regards,

Steve


Email dourpuritan PM dourpuritan
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Posts: 322
Basing & Rules
dourpuritan
5th Sep 2016 09:05:23

No, I haven't used 60x60 for 6mm, although I have for 10mm. I think I would find 75x75 too unwieldy on a 6'x4' table.


PM Glenn Pearce
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Posts: 169
Basing & Rules
Glenn Pearce
5th Sep 2016 06:36:43

Hello Steve!

I've not used 60x60 or 75x75. I use 60x30 as it's much more versatile and certainly gives you a massed look when a few of them are together. You might want to have a closer look at this smaller base (in depth only) especially since your table althought perhaps standard is small.

We thought that even the 60x60 was a little awkward at times, in a valley, on a hill, etc.

I agree that I think you will find the dynamics of the bases become much more difficult as the size grows. Your pretty much restricted to a frontal attack game. You see this clearly when you have a string of bases of any size in a line.

Your also correct in that the bigger the size of the base the more creative you can be in your display of figures on the base. The downside is as I have mentioned is playability. Overall this is one of the many secrets behind Baccus recommended base sizes, 60x30 for the ultimate in flexabilty and basic diorama looks, and 60x60 for those interested in playing only brigade based games and kicking the diorama look up a notch.

If you really want to minimize your table size and use a bigger base, you might want to consider going 80x40 as a rectangle represents the ground covered by a brigade better then a square. To my eye it also lets you be a little more creative in how you display your various units on the base.

Also keep in mind that once you move away from convention or "standard Polemos basing" your putting yourself in a custom situation that will make it difficult to hook up with other players in the future.

There is no real need for unit identity tags in 6mm. Your painting should allow you to be able to tell the units apart, plus their location to their commanders. Casualty figures cover shakens and mounted riders tempo points (or whatever). Coloured caps, dice, chips etc. are not required in most games.

Hope this has helped you in some way.

Best regards,

Glenn


PM bushs
Standard User
Posts: 51
Basing & Rules
bushs
6th Sep 2016 04:44:41

Hi Glenn,

Thanks for the feedback.

I agree with you, 60x30 or 80x40 IMO is a better way to replicate brigade formations.

...80x40 sounds like Impetus or Blucher base sizes? I was considering the 60x60 and 75x75 options because these seemed to be more popular. But then Blucher does seem to be getting quite popular also. As an added note 6mm gamers are a rare breed in Western Australia so I'll be basing more than one army.

I hadn't considered the practicalities of balancing deep bases on unlevel surfaces! I should have thought about that given that my 15's are often sliding off hills under the influence of gravity.

I already have 15's for battalion style games and was really only considering using the 6's for brigade style games.

...Wouldn't 80mm frontage cause even more of a problem for playability?

wrt unit identification. Say for a Blucher/GA style game how would you model the starting strength of a unit if you don't write it on the base somewhere?

wrt unit quality how do you model the difference between raw and trained units?

Best regards,

Steve


PM I am a spambot
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Posts: 47
Basing & Rules
I am a spambot
6th Sep 2016 05:45:17

I haven't used 75 by 75mm bases, but I did my War of Spanish Succession Prussians on 80 by40mm bases.  For the rest of my horse and musket era stuff I have gone for  60 by 30mm bases.  Having done one army with bigger bases, I have not been tempted to follow suit, as I don't think the extra work in painting, and the extra space for playing is worth it for me.  I also like the colour party in the middle, which tends to be very easy with 60mm wide bases.

It is very much a matter of personal taste, but I personally find that some configurations are more trouble than they are worth, for me.  I once did a pair of DBA armies that filled bases that were the size that 25mm figures would use with 6mm figures.  I found the project a bit of a pain to do, and it was took a a few years to get around to finishing the second army.  I find that I only use this pair of armies rarely, as I far prefer to use the 40mm wide bases for DBA.  I find a Big Battle DBA army (36 bases) using 40mm wide bases more satisfying to paint and to play with.


PM Whirlwind
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Posts: 122
Basing & Rules
Whirlwind
6th Sep 2016 06:34:05

Hi Steve,

"Query is, has anybody on the forum used 60x60 and 75x75 and noticed a quantum leap in game playability? As in, outflanking and movements on the rear become almost an impossibility because of the increase in base size. For context, I'm thinking approx. 20 bases an army on a standard 6'x4' gaming table."

As long as you limit it to 20 bases per side, you should be okay, although on balance I agree with Glenn that 60'x30' is handier and more flexible.  I found that the increased depth of these bases made things quite tricky on my 5'x3' table.  Chris Grice, author of Polemos Marechal de l'Empire which actually uses these bases suggests 6'x6' for most games and I can see why.  Grande Armee uses quite big tables too.

That said, with a big table, you can achieve some really spectacular effects:

"wrt unit identification. Say for a Blucher/GA style game how would you model the starting strength of a unit if you don't write it on the base somewhere?"

I think that you are right, in general Sam Mustafa's games are going to need you to record the info somewhere.  But if you want to avoid, then a small dioramic bases of the requisite strength should work.

"wrt unit quality how do you model the difference between raw and trained units?"

I just use the fannions or the drummers' uniforms or units in greatcoats or such-like to differentiate. 

 

 


PM Glenn Pearce
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Posts: 169
Basing & Rules
Glenn Pearce
6th Sep 2016 08:04:32

Hello Steve!

Yes, the 80 base certainly has all the awkward situations that a 60x60 or 75 have. I was only suggesting that if you were hell bent on having big bases as it gives you a better footprint and more opportunities to sort out your formations or units. I would never actually recommend any bigger base unless your doing something unique.

If your okay with 60x60 then two 60x30 back to front or even side by side gives you way more options, as you can always mix and or change up your brigades. The bigger bases only give you static brigades that you can never change. You can also just use the 60x30 as a brigade. That also allows you to jump start your gaming with half of the figures.

Have a close look at all of the pictures supplied by Whirlwind. You will see some fabulous looking bases in some awkward looking positions. It's all a matter of what compromises you can live with.

For all games your clearly in a better place if you write up a detailed o/b that has all the details on it that you need like starting strengths, modifiers, etc. If these change during the game then simply notate it. You can also be creative with the use of casualty or mounted figures etc. Again if you look at the pictures to me all of those units carring those big billboard signs/labels make the units look terrible and detract from an otherwise great looking game. The other great thing of course is without those big signs/dice/etc. the enemy will not always know your actual value.

In most cases your painting is good enought to tell the difference between a units level of training. If you need to show the difference say between line units then simply paint some differently, some in full dress, others in greatcoat, etc. There are a number of different tricks, better units add in some grenadiers, put an officer on a horse. Figure out a few different looks to your various units so that you can even change up who is who for different games. That even stumps your opposition from always being able to know which is which.

I think the key thing here is to base your figures to match the scale, never for any particular rule set. The 60x30 base has been pretty much established by Baccus and many of their customers to be the gold standard for 6mm. Use this base, an order of battle, some creative painting and your off!

If you think I can help you further, just ask.

Best regards,

Glenn


PM bushs
Standard User
Posts: 51
Basing & Rules
bushs
7th Sep 2016 05:55:27

Hi Glenn/Spambot/Whirlwind,

Sniffing around the web last night I can see that some of my queries are old chestnuts to you guys.

Thanks for your advice!

I'm a big fan of Steve's Painting Shed blog, I was actually going to model my armies on his 6mm layouts. Until I saw this;

http://miniatureaddiction.info/1815-french/

Not sure how some of those columns are going to be able to shake out into line though...

I see what you mean by the tags and I can't say I'm a fan of the bright blue versions either.

For our commemorative Waterloo game at my club last year we used transparent name tags i.e. black print on transparency cut to size and sticky taped to the bottom of the bases. Almost impossible to see until you get up close. Think I'll stick with that design. When the bases are butted up together the tags are hidden thus allowing for that mystery element of the unit quality/strength that you describe (plus they're difficult to see let alone read from a distance even when they don't have base sitting on them).

Hey Spambot,

Did you have as many miniatures on your large bases as the units have on the link I attached?

Best regards,

Steve


PM Nick the Lemming
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Posts: 48
Basing & Rules
Nick the Lemming
7th Sep 2016 12:46:26

Modelling starting strengths of units is easy. You can do it several ways, such as having a number of skirmishers in the front equal to starting strength, or if you have units with strength 4, 5 and 6 (for eample), then have normal units as 5, have units with a casualty figure on them as 4, and have a mounted officer on the base as 6. Other good signifiers are rocks or trees in particular locations on the base ( lower right - str 4, lower left, str 5, etc). Failing that, you can paint the back of the base in a particular colour (red for str 4, blue for str 5, etc).


PM Glenn Pearce
Standard User
Posts: 169
Basing & Rules
Glenn Pearce
7th Sep 2016 07:50:40

Hello Steve!

Glad that we may have helped you in some way. Basing is a big deal and if you can get it right the first time thats great. Miniature Addictions 75x75 basing is just fantastic, so if your going to go that way he's already laid the ground work out for you. People who use the 60x60 base do similar work but scale it down by generally only using three strips for a unit on the base. Three across for lines and three deep for columns. You can order extra command strips from Baccus when you place your order.

Don't forget to let us know what you decide and attach some photos when you can.

Best regards,

Glenn

 

 


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