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> General > General > Scenario Development: The Second British Invasion of River Plate - 1807
TOPIC: Scenario Development: The Second British Invasion of River Plate - 1807
PM keithabarker
Standard User
Posts: 57
Scenario Development: The Second British Invasion of River Plate - 1807
keithabarker
28th Aug 2016 07:18:58

Yes the Light Brigade were the only infantry trained as skirmishers.
The Light Battalion was formed by taking the light companies away from their parent regiments.

Craufurds Light Brigade should probably be...

* 5 coys 1/95th Rifles Lieutenant-Colonel Cadogan (364 plus 52 officers, NCOs and buglers)
* 3 coys 2/95th Rifles Major Gardner (300)
* 9 coys Light Battalion Lieutenant-Colonel Pack (approx 630, something like 9 coys * 70 men)
* 2 3-pdr guns

Also you seem to have mixed up the divisional and brigade units in the British army.
The organisation should be as follows...

C-in-C Lieut-General John Whitelocke
2nd-in-Command Major-General Leveson-Gower

1st Division (Leveson-Gower)
* Auchmuty's Brigade
* Craufurd's Light Brigade

2nd Division (Whitelocke)
* Lumley’s Brigade
* Mahon’s Brigade

In addition it looks like one of the British batteries was G Troop Royal Horse Artillery

The 95th has its history well documented...

2nd Btn 95th Rifles, The Invasion of the South America and the Rio de la Plata Campaigns
http://www.95th-rifles.co.uk/research/the-invasion-of-south-america/

The history of the Rifle Brigade (the Prince Consort's Own) formerly the 95th...
https://archive.org/stream/historyofriflebr00cope/historyofriflebr00cope_djvu.txt

Another useful link showing casualties in South America
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/Britain/Casualties/KingGeorge/c_KingGeorge16.html

RHA Organisation
http://www.napoleon-series.org/military/organization/Britain/Artillery/RHA.pdf

Hope this helps!

 


PM Glenn Pearce
Standard User
Posts: 404
Scenario Development: The Second British Invasion of River Plate - 1807
Glenn Pearce
28th Aug 2016 07:35:36

Hello FW!

Starting to look very good, Keith is a very good researcher as is John and the others. The only thing that looks odd to me is the 17th Lt. Dragons at 959 men and the 9th Lt. Dragons at 0. The number 959 seems high for a British cavalry regiment. With some more research and or guess work you might discover that the number 959 covers both regiments. So unless something else turns up I would just divide that number by 2. Composing an order of battle is rarely 100% and often contains guess work, sometimes by you and sometimes by your source.

Best regards,

Glenn

 

 


PM keithabarker
Standard User
Posts: 57
Scenario Development: The Second British Invasion of River Plate - 1807
keithabarker
28th Aug 2016 07:40:50


I didn't see your edit before I answered...

If your newly found Spanish souce is correct about the strength of the Light Brigade, then my estimate of 70 men per light company was a touch too high, 65 men per company would have been nearer the mark!

However despite my very poor Spanish, I am not 100% certain about your newly found Spanish souce as being reliable for British units. It identifies a well know picture by Charles Hamilton Smith of the Regimental Colours of the 9th Foot as "Abanderado del 9° Reg. de Dragones" which it certainly isn't.


PM keithabarker
Standard User
Posts: 57
Scenario Development: The Second British Invasion of River Plate - 1807
keithabarker
28th Aug 2016 08:55:11

I found the following from The Trial at Large of Lieut. Gen. Whitelocke.

It gives strengths for all the British units when they departed for South America, with the exception of the Light Battalion of course.

https://books.google.se/books?id=CdQBAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA305&lpg=PA305&dq=The+Trial+at+Large+of+Lieut.+Gen.+Whitelocke&source=bl&ots=P_POZ-K-6M&sig=_R7eynG2tuyfqeRqIoqSt8vBMjw&hl=sv&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiyr6ig9uTOAhXFF5oKHXIVBjMQ6AEIITAA#v=onepage&q=The%20Trial%20at%20Large%20of%20Lieut.%20Gen.%20Whitelocke&f=false


Military Instructions to Lieutenant-General WHITELOCKE, from His Royal Highness the Commander in Chief
Horse-guards, Feb 25, 1807

The force which his Majesty has been pleased to place under your immediate command consists as follows: viz

Rank & File
1/89th regiment 753
1/38th regiment 811
1/47th regiment 685
1/40th regiment 1000
1/87th regiment 801
Detachment 54th regiment 103
3 coys 95th regiment 230
17th light dragoons 628
9th light dragoons 632
Detachment 20th light dragoons 191
Detachment 21th light dragoons 140
Total: 5974

Additional Instructions to Lieutenant-General WHITELOCKE
Horse-guards, Feb 26, 1807

…the corps under Brigadier-General Craufurd…

6th Dragoon Guards 294
Royal Artillery 242
5th foot 956
36th foot 848
45th foot 873
88th foot 806
95th foot, 5 companies 372
Total: 4391


Letter from Mr. Secretary WINDHAM to Lieutenant-General WHITELOCKE, Instructions
Downing-street, March 5, 1807

9th dragoons 632
17th dragoons 628
20th dragoons 191
21th dragoons 140
Royal Artillery 117
38th foot 811
40th foot 1000
47th foot 685
54th detachment 103
87th foot 801
95th foot, 3 coys 230
Total: 5338

…the force under the command of Brigadier-General Craufurd…

6th Dragoon Guards 299
Royal Artillery 243
5th foot 836
36th foot 822
45th foot 850
88th foot 798
95th foot, 5 companies 364
Total: 4212


The British artillery is given as follows…

3 batteries of Field Artillery 18 pieces: 8x6-pdr, 5x4-pdr, 2x3-pdr & 3x5½-inch howitzers
Reserve Artillery 10 pieces: 3x24-pdr, 3x12-pdr, 2x12-inch mortars & 2x5½-inch howitzers

 

 


PM Glenn Pearce
Standard User
Posts: 404
Scenario Development: The Second British Invasion of River Plate - 1807
Glenn Pearce
29th Aug 2016 02:17:09

Hello FW!

Okay, I see that you don't want to have a low scale of 200 per base or 50 bases per side. That means that my rules would not be of any value to you. GdD seems to fit exactly what your looking for so there is no need to send me anything.

John has a great deal of experience in converting o/bs to GdD so I'm sure he'll be along shortly to help you sort out the best alternative/scale to use per base.

Best regards,

Glenn


PM Whirlwind
Standard User
Posts: 414
Scenario Development: The Second British Invasion of River Plate - 1807
Whirlwind
29th Aug 2016 05:56:43

@Friedrich_Wilhelm,

Okay, this is how I do orbats for GdD.Find the total infantry strength of both sides...

...and then divide by the number of infantry battalions on both sides (ignore detachments of 1-3 companies).  This figure will give you the average unit strength - take this as the strength of an infantry base... 

...then divide the total infantry strength of each army by this number and you have the number of infantry bases for each side ...

...then match them up as close as you can to the order of battle.  Some bigger units will need two bases (imagine them operating as wings), some smaller units will need to be amalgamated (as composite battalions).

Cavalry bases should be 3/8ths the strenngth of an infantry base.  Amalgamate or divide into "wings" as appropriate.

Artillery bases should average 6 guns if bases are c500 - 700 strong.  Any less than that, make them 4, if bigger make them 8.

If you care about such things, make 1BW = average infantry base strength/5m wide (so the ground scale can be a bit elastic).

I hope that helps

All the best

John

 

 

 

 


PM Whirlwind
Standard User
Posts: 414
Scenario Development: The Second British Invasion of River Plate - 1807
Whirlwind
30th Aug 2016 04:10:49

Hi,

Not quite.

Total infantry of both sides = 5902 + 7237 = 13139

Total number of battalions = 21

Average battalion size = 625.66..

no. of Spanish infantry bases = 5902/625 = 9.4

no. of British infantry bases = 7237/625 = 11.6

I'd normally round to the nearest while number, but because doing that would slightly disadvantage the Spanish given the small numbers of bases, I'd round both of these up to 10 and 12 respectively. Then try and get these bases to resemble individual division then brigade strength as closely as possible.

I hope that helps

 

I hope that helps


PM keithabarker
Standard User
Posts: 57
Scenario Development: The Second British Invasion of River Plate - 1807
keithabarker
30th Aug 2016 09:12:54

I agree with Whirlwind, except that I would choose to round down the number of infantry bases. This in order to make the number fit the British OOB better.

Of the 28 pieces of artillery, only 18 were field artillery, which would give the British 3 batteries. The remaining guns would be part of the siege train; 24-pdrs are used to smash city walls.

Of the dragoon regiments, only the 17th LD appear to have been mounted.

This gives the following...

Spanish: 9 Infantry, 6 Cavalry, 8 Batteries (if all the guns were field artillery which seems very unlikely?)
British: 11 Infantry, 1 Cavalry, 3 Batteries


British Army

Lieutenant General John Whitelocke (CinC)

 
Robert Craufurd's Brigade

1 base - 95th Rifles (SK2),
1 base - Light Battalion (SK2)


Sir Samuel Auchmuty Brigade

1 base - 5th foot (SK0)
1 base - 38th foot (SK0)
1 base - 87th foot (SK0)

 
William Lumley's Brigade

1 base - 36th Foot (SK0)
1 base - 88th Foot (SK0)
1 base - 17th Light Dragoons dismounted (SK0)

 
Thomas Mahon's Brigade

1 base - 40th Foot (SK0)
1 base - 45th Foot (SK0)
1 base - 9th Light Dragoons & 6th Dragoon Guards dismounted (SK0)


Cavalry Thomas Evans Lloyd

1 base - 17th Light Dragoons (Light Cavalry)


Artillery Sir Augustus Frazer
 
1 battery of Royal Horse Artillery (4 pdrs)
2 batteries of Royal Artillery (6 pdrs)

 

Spanish Army

Viceroy Santiago de Liniers (CinC)
 

División Derecha

3 bases - Infantry (SK0)
2 bases - Light Cavalry

 
División Centro
 
2 bases - Infantry (SK0)
1 base - Light Cavalry
 

División  Izquierda

2 bases - Infantry (SK0),
2 bases - Light Cavalry
 

División Reserva

2 bases - Infantry (SK0)
1 base - Light Cavalry
 


 

 


PM keithabarker
Standard User
Posts: 57
Scenario Development: The Second British Invasion of River Plate - 1807
keithabarker
31st Aug 2016 07:40:12

SK0...

The problem with the Spanish light troops was that the lack of a proper tactical manual/doctrine concerning their use ensured that the few skirmishers that the Spanish could deploy would be ill-trained for fighting on a Napoleonic battlefield. This applied both to the light battalions and to the 8 skirmishers per company that the "heavy" regiments had.

However the Spanish skirmishers seemed to excel when they were not on a Napoleonic battlefield, and fought well in all skirmishes and little wars.

As GdD represents the Napoleonic battlefield I would class the Spanish as SK0 in the same way as I did the British line infantry (even though the British line infantry could deploy centre companies as skirmishers).

If you were using another set of rules like Sharpe Practice, then I would consider giving them a better skirmish capability.

50 guns...

I didn't doubt that the Spanish had gathered 50 guns for one engagement. It seems from your source that the Spanish had 50 guns in entrenchments. How many of these were field pieces? How many had the required horses to move a battery (i.e. not just the guns).


PM keithabarker
Standard User
Posts: 57
Scenario Development: The Second British Invasion of River Plate - 1807
keithabarker
31st Aug 2016 07:02:53

Yes those are the Sharp Practice (SP) rules I meant.

I have only tested SP1

One of my friends at the club uses SP2 to fight the 1808 Finnish war between Sweden and Russia.

His blog...

http://dalauppror.blogspot.se/search/label/Sharp%20Practice

He also had an article on the same theme published in the current WSS (86).

TwoFatLardies have done a great 4-part series on youtube that explains how SP2 works...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fwH6-2K9voc

But while a skirmish with a handfull of models can be fun, I personally think that 6mm gives the right massed feeling when you want to reproduce the Napoleonic Battlefield.


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